Rodrigo MejÃa Saldarriaga, born in MedellÃn (Colombia) in 1938. Entered
the Society of Jesus (The Jesuits) in
1956. After obtaining his Master in
Philosophy and Classical Letters he was sent as a missionary to the Democratic
Republic of Congo in 1964 for three years after which he resumed his studies of
Master in Theology at the Xaveriana
Pontifical University in Bogotá (Colombia) and his Doctorate in Theology at the
Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.
Back in Congo, he was Rector of the St. Peter Canisius Jesuit Institute of Philosophy in Kinshasa until 1984
when he was sent to Nairobi in order to be one of the co-founder members of the
staff of the newly started Hekima College as well as the newly born Catholic
University of East Africa (CUEA) where he taught Pastoral Theology. At the same
time he also co-founded the Parish of St. Joseph The Worker in the slum area of
Kangemi in Nairobi in 1985, where he used to reside. In 1995 he was appointed Provincial Superior of
the Jesuits in Eastern Africa. In 1998 he was assigned to Ethiopia where he was General Secretary of the Archdiocese
of Addis Ababa. In 2007 he was
consecrated Bishop of the Apostolic Vicariate of Soddo-Hosanna. In 2013,
reached the limit of canonical age, he became Bishop Emeritus of Soddo and
returned to Nairobi. He currently lives in the Jesuit Spirituality Centre of
Mwangaza, in Karen (Nairobi) and gives spiritual retreats.
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| Pope Francis greeting Bishop Rodrigo MejÃa during his recent visit to Kenya |
Evangelii Gaudium (The Joy of the Gospel) Download PDF >>>
Yago: Bishop Rodrigo MejÃa, you are welcome to this blog where we are exploring ways of deconstructing the forces of enslavement that keeps perpetuating slavery in today's world. Your contribution is very much appreciated. In this interview we would like to study how Pope Francis envisions Joy as a essential transformative attitude to deal with injustices in today's world.
You say that "The Joy of the Gospel" is Pope Francis’ program. What do
you mean by that?
Bishop Rodrigo MejÃa: He himself, in the text of the Apostolic Exhortation itself,
said that this is not just a document as usual. He says, “I want to
emphasize that what I am trying to express here has a programmatic significance
and important consequences” (No. 25). Programmatic significance means this
is his program. If a Catholic asks, “Where is Pope Francis willing to orient
the Church in the years to come?” The response is in the line of the Joy of
the Gospel. Besides, in the same Exhortation he says “I was happy to
take up the request of the Fathers of the Synod to write this exhortation”
(No. 16).
Q: Why precisely "The
Joy of the Gospel"? How relevant is this term?
Bishop Rodrigo: I think that he realizes that living in a time of crisis for
the Church, as is our situation today, evangelizers can grow weary, perhaps
because they are older or because there are less vocations, or because of the
accusations against priests. On the other hand, evangelizers face great
challenges, widespread violence, terrorism, human trafficking, etc.
Evangelizers can become discouraged, thinking, “the challenges are too many and
too great.” So, the Pope says that we cannot allow pessimism to overwhelm us;
he says that we have to keep the joy of evangelizing and the joy of being
evangelized. And he says that if we allow this to be our missionary impulse,
this is what would make possible a new period for the Church, a renewal of the
Church. It is joy that will renew the Church. In the first chapter he explains
very well what kind of joy he is talking about. It is not a superficial
enthusiasm but is a kind of renewal of the motivation that, with the help of
the Spirit, who is there always, we can renew the Church and we can renew
evangelization. I think this joy is a fact that he has communicated not only to
the Church, in his own personal messages and actions, but even to those outside
the Church. We can say that, by at large, people are happy with the Pope. This
happiness is the joy of seeing that a renewal is possible, a new evangelization
is possible.
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| Pope Francis, a man of compassionate and mercy |
Q: You say that "The Joy of the Gospel" coexists with suffering, even is produced by suffering. What
do you mean by this?
Bishop Rodrigo: It is not the joy of victory. It is not the joy of complacency
about what we have achieved. It is the joy of knowing for Whom and for what we
are struggling. And that is a joy similar to the joy of an athlete who is
training for a long distance race. The training of such an athlete demands
sacrifice, self-discipline, self-denial, many hours on the track and in the
gym, abstention from alcohol, fidelity to proper diet, etc. Such sacrifices are
undertaken willingly and in joy because of the goal. With all the more reason
the evangelizer should be one who is willing to undergo struggle and hardship
because he can be sure of attaining the goal for which he sacrifices and
strives, because he can be sure that the Lord will be faithful to his promise.
“I will be with you until the end of time.” So, in moments of trials and
difficulties and indeed through the evangelizer truly arrives at his goal. No
joy is stable, durable, and solid, without a cost. Our sufferings, hardships
and challenges are but the human collaboration we have to offer for that; but
once we are convinced of the joy, we are ready to pay the price.
Q: Does desolation takes away "The Joy of the Gospel"?
Bishop Rodrigo: Desolation may come. In addition, inclinations to pessimism
and discouragement may come, but Pope Francis reminds us that we have a
responsibility to allow such movements to shape our lives or to oppose them.
Such should be our response when we recognize such movements, to use the
vocabulary of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, as not coming from the “good spirit”,
precisely because they work to divide or separate us from the joy of the
Kingdom. In moments of desolation we have to assess their meaning, whether they
have a meaning, may be a test, or an instance of the dark night of the soul, as
John of the Cross observes. It is not uncommon in the lives of the saints to
have moments of darkness or cloudiness. Even Moses had to enter into the cloud
to meet Yahweh. It is normal, it is human, but we should not allow ourselves to
be shaped and overcome by such moments. We have to continue faithfully our
pilgrimage, the journey of evangelization, even in the face of such struggles.
Q: The Beatitudes are the charter and the wisdom of the
Kingdom. You invite us to take the Beatitudes as the final reference for our
examination of conscience and also for the preparation of the sacrament of
reconciliation. Could you expand on this?
Bishop Rodrigo: Many translations in English use the word blessed when
translating each of the Beatitudes. It is a very liturgical word because a
blessing is a liturgical ceremony. And we also say in our prayers “blessed be
you Lord God of all creation.” God blesses us but we also bless Him, and we
glorify Him, we proclaim Him happy. This is to worship God. In the Beatitudes
the better English translation would be happy. It is more faithful to
the original Greek “makarios”. It means a real happiness, a durable joy
that is not limited to this life, but that will be fulfilled in the joy of
eternal life. Now, this is the joy of the Beatitudes which is not the joy
centred in myself but it is the joy of serving, the joy of doing the will of
God. When I am convinced, through faith, that I am doing what God wants, even
if I suffer, I am happy because I am sure I am serving the Lord. It is like the
soldier who fights willingly and with devotion when he knows that there is
purpose and meaning to his cause. There is a reason for joy. The Beatitudes are
the charter of the Kingdom of God. They are the portrait of Jesus himself at
the same time. That’s why we could use them more as a mirror, as an aide to our
examination of conscience, and not just for daily life but also in preparation
for our confession. We usually do not kill, steal, or commit adultery, but it
is more common that we lose enthusiasm, react with anger, lose patience, lack
meekness, fear being persecuted for justice, remain silent when we should
speak, etc. The Beatitudes could help us to make a fuller examination of our
motivations and attitudes, and especially as evangelizers in the light of the
joy and happiness called forth in us by the Beatitudes.
Q: Pope Francis in
n. 33 is inviting us to be bold and creative in the task of rethinking the
goals, structures, style, and methods of evangelization. We have to avoid the
mere pastoral of maintenance. What are the consequences of this statement? Why
is Pope Francis so blunt in this intention?
Bishop Rodrigo: I think that he realizes that we are still keeping structures
that were useful and good for the Church in the past but that are not
responding to the present needs, the present mentality, the new generations,
the new social situations. We may think that these structures are untouchable.
We may declare them part of the tradition of the Church and this is not always
the case. These structures are not to be identified with dogmas. They can
change and they should be updated or replaced. We have to find a way of
proceeding that is more meaningful to contemporary people. That is in general.
In particular, the Pope is working with a group of nine cardinals to bring some
important innovations. This includes a revision of the constitution of the
Roman Curia, a work that has already been underway for more than two years and
which would see a revision of the structures and organization of the hierarchy.
This may include new ways of relating between Rome and the Bishops’ Conferences
(not only the bishops at national level, but also the regional Bishop’s
conferences, like AMECEA, SECAM, etc.) and greater collegiality in decision
making, more autonomy in certain domains, etc. We do not know because this has
not been published, but we expect a simplification of the processes of the
administration in the Vatican. The Pope has already started this process, but
he is also inviting, even at the level of parishes, a participation in the
revision of our structures of catechesis, our structures of lay involvement,
and our structures of pastoral work at all levels combined with an assessment
of their relevance and meaningfulness in today’s world.
Q: We are talking
about the risk of clericalism.
Bishop Rodrigo: In the old versions of Canon Law there were some structures
that were presented as originated explicitly by divine will, and therefore,
incapable of being changed precisely because they were supposed to be ordained
by the will of God, that is, instituted, directly or indirectly by Christ.
However, this does not apply to all the ecclesial structures, and it is these
latter structures which the Church may and in appropriate circumstances should
revise.
Q: You say that the
problem is: doing things in the same way while expecting different results.
Bishop Rodrigo: Exactly, that is what the Pope means. We cannot continue doing
things in the same way we have been doing for 2000 years and expect new
results, because if the method is the same, the results will be the same. So,
if we want to expect better results, we have to alter our way of proceeding.
Q: You also mention
that joy is related to creativity. You talk about the creative joy. How are joy
and creativity connected?
Bishop Rodrigo: Creativity in human terms engenders joy. An artist can spend
hours painting, without a concern for time, and he is happy while he is working
and not only when the work is finished. In a sense he is happy not because he
has finished the work but he is happy with the process. If the process is just
repetitive, is monotonous, is routine, it is very difficult that it begets joy.
You need a lot of faith to do the same thing every day and express joy.
Creativity can bring the joy of newness.
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| Bishop Rodrigo MejÃa giving a session during "The Joy of the Gospel" retreat |
Q: Pope Francis is
inviting us to revise our motivation for evangelization. What are the risks and
challenges we are facing as pastoral agents?
Bishop Rodrigo: The Pope identifies motivations as presenting both challenges
and temptations. The reason is that we may be evangelizers having good
intentions of course. Nobody evangelizes with bad intention. However, there are
also intentions and motivations that coming not from the Holy Spirit but from
the world, like ecclesiastical ambitions for power, promotion, honour,
advancement, prestige, etc. That’s why he told the new cardinals not to allow
people to call them “princes of the Church”. The quest for honour, prestige,
power, comfort, and so on, should not be the guiding motivation of evangelists.
That’s why he is puts us on the alert to purify our motivations. We evangelize
because we have received this mission from the Holy Spirit.
Q: Can we discover
perfect joy in darkness?
Bishop Rodrigo: Darkness is an ambiguous term. Darkness is a state of spirit
more than an outside situation. We may discover joy in suffering and in being
tested. Darkness means more an absence of joy, a feeling of desolation. And
darkness in the gospel of John is also equivalent to sin. The power of darkness
is the power of sin. I would not say darkness, but we certainly can have joy in
the middle of suffering or being tested. As Martin Luther King expresses very
well: “I have never been so free as when I am now, here in prison.” To
have been in prison for such a noble cause was for him something that gave him
pride and joy, a sense of satisfaction in his suffering. That is what Peter and
John express after they were flogged for the first time by the Sanhedrin. They
came back joyful at having been found worthy of suffering for the sake of the
Name. If they suffer for the sake of the Name, that means they have been graced
by God to undergo this trial.
Q: You and Pope
Francis differentiate between obligation and impulse. What do you mean when
relating it to Joy?
Bishop Rodrigo: Obligation may have a negative connotation. “I do that by
obligation” I do not like it, I do not feel committed to that, I do not feel
any joy in doing that, but I do because I am obliged to do. This is to do
things out of duty, as a burden, as something coming from outside, imposed.
This is not the attitude in the mission because this attitude does not reflect
joy. But, you should do the things out of missionary impulse, this impulse is
motivation coming from grace, from the Holy Spirit, it is giving you the joy of
doing that. Externally someone may judge that what you are doing is difficult
and that’s why sometimes people would ask if we do not find it difficult to go
to mass every day, to pray, to obey, to have vows, etc. But it is also possible
to under these routines freely. And such routines freely undertaken can give
rise to an altogether different experience, an experience of liberation,
happiness and joy. Vocation implies a free choice not an obligation.
Q: The risk of
individualism in the Church and its relation to mission as a personal calling.
Bishop Rodrigo: Christ gives the mission in the Gospels to concrete persons.
In the Gospels, the Apostles receive a mandate to go on mission as a group.
The Great Commission of Matthew’s Gospel instructs the Apostles to “go and
preach the Gospel” to all nations. But the Apostles have been chosen
personally. Hence, there are the two elements here; the personal calling and
the communal or ecclesial dimension in the mission. The mission is personal
because the response to the call has to be personal, as it is very clearly in
the passage of Luke in relation to the annunciation to Mary, “let it be done to
me according to your will.” In this sense, we should avoid comparing missions
because each one has his or her own mission, as in the body there are different
missions, i.e. the personal aspect is to give an account of my mission.
However, by individualism we understand here an action planned and done in
isolation, without any reference to the mission of the community: I do not mind
what the mission of the Holy Spirit is and I do not know what the mission of
the group is. I have my own calling and “charism”, and I go ahead alone. That
is precisely what Pope Francis intends to reject and to condemn, especially at
the beginning of his Apostolic Exhortation. We have to avoid a kind of
competitive, protagonist and individualistic approach in which I become the
centre of the mission and I tend to feel look at myself as indispensable to the
mission and to make every success of the mission depending on my own. Sometimes
pastoral agents feel so indispensable that they cannot be moved from “their
mission”. They are not available for other missions. We have to avoid that in
the new evangelization. In the past, because of the lack of personnel, the
missionaries were working alone very often, without a team. That situation
enhanced this individualism, if the missionary was changed, he or she moved
with his or her benefactor because they were friends helping him or her more
than they were friends helping him or her more than helping the mission. This
is what we have to avoid in the new evangelization. We have, more and more, to
work as a team; for practical reasons, because if at any time we lack help, the
mission does not depend on one individual. I recall here the traditional Zulu
Proverb: “If you want to go fast, walk alone; but if you want to go far, walk
with others”.
Q: How do you
understand the Kingdom of God?
Bishop Rodrigo: The kingdom of God is a plan or a program. The kingdom of God
and the plan of salvation for me are interchangeable. It is where God may be
the point of reference for everything. The king is the head, the king is the
point of reference for all people, the king unites the people, and the king
rules over them and so a perfect kingdom is a kingdom of peace and justice. It
is described very well in the preface of the feast of Christ the King; a
kingdom of justice. It is not a territory. The evangelist Matthew never speaks
of Kingdom of God, he speaks about the Kingdom of heaven; the reason is that
for his Jewish sensitivity, it is better to avoid the name of God. He is a Jew
writing to the Jewish community, but the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of
heaven have the same meaning in the Gospels. Today the tendency among some
exegetes is to translate kingdom as “kingship” underlining, not a territory,
but the sovereignty of God over creation and over all humankind, to unify, to
make all things one. Such is the idea in Saint Paul: to make heaven and earth
only one unit. Now, this involves fundamentally a communion with God. There was
an interpretation at the beginning of the past century that the kingdom of God
was completely interior, completely personal, and spiritual and therefore
invisible. The kingdom of God is fulfilled when I, as an individual and as a
person, receive and accept the faith in my heart. So the kingdom of God is
within me. It is true in a sense that if we accept in faith and we receive the
message of the gospel and we live it in ourselves, we are in the Kingdom of
God. However, we cannot reduce the kingdom of God to a purely individual and
private reality. Those who have received the gospel create interrelations that
are visible and show the kingdom of God as a new people, a new Israel, a new
creation even. Others, especially in the past, identify the Kingdom of God and
the Church. The Church would be identical with the Kingdom of God on earth.
Today this is not accepted in Ecclesiology. There is a distinction between
Kingdom and the Church. The Church is a sacrament, an instrument, a symbol, and
a herald of the Kingdom and tries to live the spirit of Kingdom in itself; but
the real consolation and fulfilment of the Kingdom is eschatological. As long
as we are still pilgrims on earth, we are on the way of the kingdom. It is true
that those who are on the way, in a sense they are already in the Kingdom
because Jesus said, “I am the way”. That is why we pray in “Our Father”: “your
kingdom come” every day.
Q: You say that
tradition is not a simple repetition. You also say that we live in a living
tradition. What do you mean by that? How do the present and the future relate
with tradition?
Bishop Rodrigo: If we take an example from nature, it may help us to
understand. We see here in Africa weaverbirds; they make their nest very
nicely, but they never change the model. They cannot innovate or improve even
their model. They are working by instinct and by repetition. The repetition may
give you skills, but the repetition alone does not give you the capacity to
question whether what you are doing is the best way or not, or whether the
result can be improved or not. So, the element of improvement, progress, and
creativity is not present in the simple fact of repetition, and that’s why what
we have to examine tradition, we have to examine how relevant this tradition is
today. Is what we are repeating from the past understood and relevant for
today? Do people appreciate it today? Is it a symbol that continues to appeal?
What tradition meant to maintain is the value conveyed through these
repetitions. Can we convey these same values today in another way? Once people,
jokingly, said to a bishop “you have to love tradition” and the bishop replied,
“yes, I love tradition very much, and that’s is way I want to start new ones”…
Someone wrote: “We have to be faithful to the fire of our ancestors, not to
its ashes”.
Q: Good intention is
not enough for evangelization. Could you expand on this?
Bishop Rodrigo: Good intention means good will. The person says. “I do not
have bad intentions; I want to do good to people”. However, good intention needs
to be submitted to the test of discernment, because with good intentions alone
you can still make mistakes. If the good intention is an act of the will only,
it may be an act of emotions or feelings, and with good intentions you can make
a mistake; even a person treating a sick person with good intention but not
having the least notion of medicine can do the contrary thing. For example, if
a person, victim of a car accident is laying down motionless, the first thing
is to say “don’t move until the paramedics come” because the person may have a
fracture. In fact, by moving the wounded in an abrupt way the fracture may get
worse, even if done with good intention. The same happens in our mission: if we
do not submit it to the discernment and consult with the community, we can make
serious pastoral mistakes with “good intention”.
Q: You say that we have to change the poles. God does not need
our love. Could you explain more on this?
Bishop Rodrigo: We cannot say that God created the world and humankind because
he was missing something. God was not missing anything; he created freely and
out of love because love tends to communicate. Now, He loves us and He is
fulfilled in his love. He is not deficient. If I don’t love him,
anthropologically we say we offend him, we sadden God, God is not happy etc.
This is our way of expressing that our relations are broken and in the parable
of the prodigal son, Jesus himself compares God with the father of the prodigal
son. It is clear that the father is missing his son humanly speaking. However,
he is missing his son out of love, of course. Now, we have to avoid two
extremes, that God is really missing something because we are making him
incomplete, or we are disturbing his infinite joy, in other words, we cannot disturb
his infinite joy; but the other extreme is to think that God is indifferent,
for God is the same whether we love him or not. This is not true because the
response, the positive response of love, is dialogue with the beloved. That is
why that appears in the prayer for unity; keep them in the unity in the chapter
17 of John. “As the father loves, I love you”. If God remains indifferent how
could He be compassionate? The main point is that the love, with which we love
Him, comes also from Him, not from us. John is very clear in his first letter:
“It is not we who have first loved Him but He who loved us first. God is the
source of any genuine love.
Q: Could we say that outside love there is no salvation?
Bishop Rodrigo: Yes, I prefer this statement; “outside Love that there is no
salvation”, instead of the traditional, “outside the Catholic Church there is
no salvation”. Why? Because the love of God is not confined to the Church and
this is developed in the First Letter of John. “God is love and whoever
remains in love remains in God and God in him” (1 John 4: 16). Therefore,
love for one another can happen inside the Church or outside the Church. And in
the final analysis is love that will save the people. Matthew 25:31-46, in the
parable of last judgment, wrote, “I was hungry…” many people will say, “When
did you see you? We did not know the gospel, we did not recognise you, and we
were not in the Church. Yes, but whoever visited me, made an act of love, come
to my kingdom. That is why love provides a better image, a better description
of the salvific action of God beyond the visible belonging to the Church.
Q: Marianne Williamson says that our deepest fear is that we
are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most
frightens us. Do we fear resurrection? Do we know how to preach resurrection?
Bishop Rodrigo: Well, we, people, in general, are afraid of death but it is,
for a good part, because we do not have the conviction of resurrection. Many,
even Christians, may hold resurrection as a theoretical truth, and we cannot
even imagine what resurrection is. Usually resurrection, in popular
religiosity, is comparable to re-animation or resuscitation; it is to resume
the same body that we have, and to continue, to re-start a living like Lazarus.
We call it the resurrection of Lazarus, in fact Lazarus was not resurrected
theologically, he was resuscitated, he was re-animated (and I don’t know
whether he was very happy by the way, to start again dealing with his life...).
Resurrection means a new life, and of course, of this new life, we do not have
experience, it is a matter of faith. We cannot imagine it because nobody has
come to describe to us what the situation in the afterlife is. We know by the data
of the Gospel that our bodies will be transformed and in that Paul insists that
our identity will be maintained. We will be identified as Jesus was identified
after his resurrection, but his body was a glorious body not the same identical
earthly body. This is the only information we have about the resurrection of
Jesus, as a model, but Paul has a larger idea of resurrection. This is the
resurrection after death, but there is also a spiritual resurrection from sin,
from the death of sin, and in that resurrection, we are already risen with
Christ. We are already participating in the life that we are going to have
later on. How? By Grace and in the Spirit. This is why Paul teaches “we are new
creatures” (Letter to the Galatians), we are renewed in Baptism. That is
the ritual of baptism in Easter, when the paschal candle is put into the water,
Christ is symbolized descending to the realm of the dead to bring them
resurrect to new life as the candle is brought from the water, this is the
symbol of our spiritual resurrection. And if we are resurrected with Christ,
wrote Paul to the Colossians, let us look for the things that are above where
Christ is in glory. I mean we have to change our life. However, we have to have
this joy of the gospel permanently because we are already risen with Christ.
This is not so well understood and this is why we, priests, do not preach
enough about this kind of resurrection.
Q: Could you go
deeper on your statement “we are resurrected already”?
Bishop Rodrigo: Yes! We are resurrected from the power of sin, we are
resurrected from the darkness of ignorance, we are resurrected from slavery to
passions, and from the slavery of the power of darkness, the power of sin, and
in that sense we are free, we can call God “Abba” Father. These all are signs
of resurrection.
Bishop Rodrigo: What Pope Francis wants is what Vatican II already suggested
in the decree of the Renewal of Religious Life. The danger is that religious
life may become a ghetto, a kind of community in which everyone feels secure,
is talking the truth, praying, living in community but not having any concern
or any impact in the civil society around them; and that means we do not know
what is happening and the prophetic aspect of Religious Life is lost. Many
Christians consider the monks, the monasteries, and the religious life, as if
they do not belong to this society, as though they do not belong to this world.
By being religious, we should become not angelic but more human, more
interested in what is happening around us and more ready to see it with the
eyes of faith. When we discern that something is positive, we encourage people,
but when we see signs that are not in the line of the kingdom of God, we
denounce the evils of society. However, if we are not aware of what is
happening, how can we have an impact in society? Our religious communities should
be aware of what is happening in society, and discern what is happening in
order to tell the people “keep watch.”
Q: Pope Francis is
inviting us to a critical contemplation of our world. Are we equipped to do
that? Do we have the skills to look at the root causes?
Bishop Rodrigo: Yes, certainly, because our pastoral theology as a theological
discipline has developed very much in the last years. Pastoral theology is a
real critical reflection on the action of the Church in the world, questioning and
seeking meaningful answers to such questions as what we are doing? the demands
of the gospel? the mandate of Christ? the meaning of that mandate? the
receptivity of that mandate? the action of the Church-ad-intra? and so on. Our
pastoral theology provides us with important indicators, parameters,
dimensions, but of course we must employ them. When I am invited in a
school, for example, how are these dimensions present in that school? We may
think that the diakonia is very well because we are giving the service
of education, but that school may lack koinonia, that is, communion with
the parents, with families. Indeed we have aids to assessing our actions. But
very often we don’t use them and this is the problem. The invitation of Pope
Francis is to be more attentive and not to be afraid of being critical of our
own actions with a view to being of greater service, not with a view of seeing
only shortcomings and being discouraged, not with a view to being prophets of
doom, as he says, but with a view of encouraging and doing better.
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| Pope Francis with Putin and Obama |
Q: Pope Francis is
inviting us to evangelize, not only persons but also structures and politics.
How can we do this?
Bishop Rodrigo: We can do it at two levels, if we take into consideration that
structures come from people. People produce social structures and we have to be
aware of their interaction. On the other hand, structures also shape the
mentality/minds of people. So there has to be a strategy that would deal with
both dimensions. A critical analysis of the structure itself (objective), be it
the structure of education, health, culture, religion, etc., in the society.
Here I analyse concrete structures objectively: are they helpful for our
society today yes or not? Are they against the values of the Kingdom of God? This,
irrespectively of who created that structure or where it comes from. On the
other hand, we have to make people aware that some structures may be harmful
for the society, that they are not as effective and fair as they were in the
past. It is our duty, as a new generation, to revisit our own structures and
not to be afraid of recognizing structures of the past that are no longer
appropriate, even if they have a long tradition. Humankind by itself
spontaneously makes such adjustments. We come from a system of government that
consisted only in absolute monarchies, only kings, everywhere. Now from kings
they came into republic and then republic, and then democracy and participation
and from republic, federal republic, parliamentary republic, and so on. Society
itself is reflective. We have to contribute to that common reflection proposing
the changes of structures that we think, from the ethical point of view, that
are better for society. In the Catholic Social Teaching of the Church, we have
a fantastic guide and instrument for this structural discernment.
Q: How can we
evangelize the current economic structures ruling the world?
Bishop Rodrigo: The first step is to see the situation and describe properly
what is happening. A past idea was to produce more richness, more money, and
more technology in order to be able to be able to redistribute it.
Unfortunately, the result was more accumulation of riches in the hands of a few
people, resulting in a bigger gap between the rich and the poor. This is a fact.
It is up to us to analyse that and to make it known that the people are
suffering in following this model. It is not because of the collapse of
Communism that the Capitalistic approach of globalisation is good. It is not
good, there is a structural sin there. There is ambition, lack of control,
subjection to a dictatorship of the free Market. This is idolatry of economy.
We need to change that structure. That is the first step. The second step is to
examine what we can propose. What kind of alternative models of economy are
better? That is more difficult because it requires skills, professional
reflection, and in that the Church has a rich resource in properly motivated
professional lay people. This is a real “lay ministry” and we can co-opt people
who know deeply and are familiar with international market, international
monetary funds, etc., qualified people who can propose new ways. They are the
Church also!
Q: What about evangelizing the structures within the Catholic
Church?
Bishop Rodrigo: The Pope is very much aware that there is a need to revise
these structures. He affirms that from the very beginning of the Exhortation
(No. 32). One structure is centralism. We were taking centralism in the past as
a symbol of unity, and it is true, it was. However, the Pope says that too much
centralism does not help the Church today, that there has to be more
collegiality. Collegiality is another structure. It was accepted at Vatican II
but the pope notes in the instruction that we have not advanced very far in
implementing collegiality. Collegiality is having the capacity of
decision-making in common even at a local level, of more autonomy, more
responsibility to the particular Churches. So far, collegiality is officially
recognized only in the ecumenical councils where the Bishops decide even
dogmatic things, by majority voting, always in union with the Pope.
Collegiality is not a matter of putting the Pope aside. However, the
structure of the Synod of Bishops has to be revised, and it is being revised,
and in fact the pope has already introduced some important changes. In the last
meeting of the previous year, the pope changed the structures telling the
bishops to “speak boldly, honestly and frankly and to listen with humility”.
Nor were their remarks to be limited to 3 or 4 minutes and the bishops were
allowed even to contradict one another. These were important examples of
collegiality and the recognition that at the universal level it is impossible,
more and more impossible, to give uniform rules appropriate to every local
Church. Such might have been possible and necessary in the past. Why? Because
we were living in the Christendom mentality, but now the Christendom is
finished, and you can see that, even in Europe, we cannot talk about Christian
countries, even catholic countries. So, each episcopal conference, each local
Church has to take its responsibility. Such is an example of evangelising
structures.
Q: You also talk
about ecological structures. What are they?
Bishop Rodrigo: The ecological structures are the policies, international or
national, that the different governments have, because they are responsible for
the common good, for the protection of the atmosphere and the environment. Now
if we pollute and poison the environment, we are damaging the common good.
Therefore, there is an ethics in the dealing with creation. The book of Genesis
is very clear: “master creation”, not “destroy creation”. Therefore, it is not
that we cannot use creation, that we cannot cut a tree, and utilize nature. It
is not that. We can utilize nature but we have to be mindful of generations
that are to come. In addition, we should utilize creation in such a way that
the side effects of our usage is not more detrimental that the progress we are
pursuing. Such consideration are part of the ethics of the common good.
Therefore, evangelising these structures means examining them first,
critically, and also saying how we can minimise the damage, how can we avoid
pollution, etc. Here, again, in the Catholic Social Doctrine, we have solid
principles about environment and integrity of creation and that is part of
evangelisation.
Q: Pope Francis
talks about a “globalization of indifference” happening in today’s world. What
does he mean by that?
Bishop Rodrigo: Well, he uses globalisation in the sense of generalisation. In
fact, in the face of such big problems that emerge at the international level
and that are decided at high levels – the United Nations, the Security Council,
and so on – we can ask, “What can I, as an individual, do?” As an individual, I
can do nothing or very little; therefore, for me all remains the same. I hear
the news, I watch the TV, I learn of victims of terrorism, of migrants
drowning, etc. Since I can do nothing, I become insensitive; nothing tortures
me because every day the news is the same, the same disasters. Therefore, at
that moment, if they ask my opinion, or they ask my collaboration, I would say:
“I can do nothing”, I enter into a situation of indifference, for me this is
normal that people die from Ebola or AIDS; it’s normal; especially if I am not
living in that situation. This indifference affects much more the people who
live in affluent societies, with comfort, and a quality of life that is very
far geographically and humanly from these problems. When we live in isolation,
as in an ivory tower, we feel protected. We tend even to justify these evils,
“this is life, life is like that, you see, the big fish eats the small fish”,
or “it has always been like that”. Others can go even further and think: “this
is the plan of God; this is the will of God, the survival of the fittest”.
Q: Is it the Church
integrating the Social Doctrine of the Church into her proclamation? Is the
Social Doctrine of the Church well understood by pastoral agents?
Bishop Rodrigo: I would say that at the Social Doctrine of the Church is
certainly influencing the ordinary magisterium of the Pope’s teachings and the
documents of the different Roman Congregations. I see more and more that this
is the case. If you read attentively, the Joy of the Gospel you will see
that it refers several times to the Catholic Social Teaching of the Church.
However, at the popular level, this continues to be our “best kept secret”.
Because people do not know much about Catholic Social Teaching and can think
that we don’t have qualified people to teach it to the people. We think that we
need to be great experts in sociology, anthropology, economy, and all kinds of
disciplines. It helps, but if you read the Compendium of Catholic Social
Doctrine and the Encyclical letters, you will see that they were addressed
to common people and the Compendium has a common language, although the Compendium
– the great initiative of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace – is
still quite large. It is a reference book, it is not a book to put in the hands
of a common Catholic or a common Christian. What we need in order to make it
known is a vulgarize version of the Social Teaching of the Church. Short
manuals, perhaps by topics or problems (ecology, races, slavery, economy...
whatever) might be more effective. Such, unfortunately, does not exist in
Africa. Another thing that I see is that there is a very good will in starting
Justice and Peace Commissions at different levels. One of the main tasks of JPC
is precisely to make known the social teachings of the Church at the popular
level. Something is being done, for example, here in Kenya, through the Lenten
campaigns. It is a good idea during the Lenten Season to take a topic and make
it known at the parish level and to Small Christian Communities. The JPC
publishes such booklets in English and Swahili for the use of communities.
Something is done, for sure, but the problem is that still we are not working
in much collaboration. We are rather dividing our energies a lot. There is a
JPC for women Religious, there is JPC for men Religious, there is a JPC for the
Bishop’s Conference, there is JPC for the Universities, etc. I have contacted
members of all of them, practically, and they do not know each other, nor do
they know what the others are doing. This is what, jokingly, I tell them, “you
are very evangelical because the right hand does not know what the left is
doing”.
Q: You talk about
balancing proclamation and denunciation. Could you expand on this?
Bishop Rodrigo: It is easy to denounce, to protest is easy. When we see a
problem to cry and to criticise is comparatively easy. It may be done with the
best of intentions, but it is not always done in an enlightened fashion. The
great challenge is to take action that would also strive to bring about
improvement. What do we do to avoid or improve shortcomings? Do we expect
everything to come from above? After the proclamation, comes the question. Such
was the situation of John the Baptist and the question to Peter from the first
converted: brethren, what must we do? And that is why I stress that even in
proclamation we can produce good documents, telling what to do. But the next
step is implementation of the proclamation.
Q: Religion is
undergoing the risk of becoming privatized. How?
Bishop Rodrigo: A major reason for this is the misunderstanding of religion.
This is not new, it has always been, even in the times of Jesus, and in the Old
Testament: religion is frequently regarded as one’s private relations with God.
My spiritual life (prayer) with God; confession is asking forgiveness from God,
the sacraments are asking the grace of God, everything I relate to God,
vertically to heaven. Therefore, it is my own responsibility. And when I die, I
will be judged personally, and I have to give account of my life to God, not to
anybody else. On the other hand, many have a kind of scepticism towards those
who represent religion socially: the priests, and the pastors. Jesus Christ,
the Gospel, that is very nice, but not the Church, the Church has many defects:
priests do not preach well, they do not prepare their homilies or they have
limitations and failings, and so on. And Therefore, there may be mistrust of
the Church. And when I do not accept the aspect of communion with the others, I
am happy with communion with God alone. That is precisely what the First
Letter of John stresses. If one is not in communion with his brothers, how
can he claim to be in communion with God? These are often false pretexts to
justify a “comfortable” and private religion. However, we do must realise that
religion is “re-ligare” (to bind together): in religion we are bound together
with God and with the others.
Q: You say that we
have to evangelize cultures in order to enculturate the Gospel. Why?
Bishop Rodrigo: Because enculturation is a bi-lateral process; it is not a
unilateral process. If I pretend to take the Gospel and apply it to a culture
in such a way as to make the Gospel fit to the culture or a local Church, what
I am doing is changing the Gospel and not the culture. This is not
enculturation. In the proper process of enculturation both change, the
way of understanding the Gospel and the way of understanding the culture. The
interaction of both produces a renewed culture. The Pope says that we have to
revise whether every single element of culture is in line with the Gospel. We
can talk about a culture of corruption, in which corruption is culturally
normal, but that is against the Gospel; or a culture of slavery which was
accepted for centuries, for example. Slavery existed in Europe, in society, for
centuries and the majority of people did not see it as contrary to the Gospel.
At that moment, thanks to prophets like Bartolomeo de las Casas, or Peter
Claver, and others, voices emerged which made us aware that slavery is not in
harmony with the Gospel. Paul, for example, did not speak against slavery, but
he did try to humanize it, demanding that one treat slaves well, consider them
like brother and sisters. But Paul never told Philemon that slavery was bad.
When Paul lived he had not reached that level of enculturation. Today we go
beyond that, and today we also have a heightened awareness of other injustices
in various cultures, especially concerning the role of women in society and in
the Church. We recognize that such structures have to be revised to that they
are more in accordance with human dignity and revelation, as we have come to
understand this in our present age. In this way there is an interaction between
culture and the Gospel.
Q: What is the stand
of the Pope about women in the Church, especially as regards decision-making
and power?
Bishop Rodrigo: He recognizes that the rights and dignity of women, as we have
come to understand these today, requires that women be given greater roles in
the Church. That is the principle. Participation in the Church means
participation in deliberation, decision-making, consultation, etc. We have
bodies for that, bodies in which women can be integrated. We have from the
bottom, parish pastoral councils, diocesan pastoral councils, we have Roman congregations
in which women are most welcome, and they could give their own opinions and
take part in decision making. The mistake is to believe this is possible only
if they are permitted to celebrate the Eucharist. The Pope says that this is a
mistake because the sacraments do not give any power. Sacraments are not
sources of power. The power of the parish priest comes from his leadership and
the consultation with the parish council. So, it’s another source of power but
not the sacraments. So let us not think of the enhancing the role of women in
the Church only in the confection of the sacraments, that is, the essence of
the ordained priesthood. The Pope himself has taken the initiative to increase
the role of women in the Vatican Curia and the congregations.
Q: Can we say that
there exists a culture of corruption within the Church?
Bishop Rodrigo: Even in the Church there is corruption, because the culture of
corruption can exist everywhere even if not in the same way. In the Church, the
corruption may not be necessarily financial, although it could be financial as
well, but it is not necessarily financial. What may happen in the Church is a
confluence of influences, whereby I want to have a promotion. So I cultivate
friendships that can work to bring about my name to be chosen for this or for
that. That may happen in the Church and is part of what the Pope describes
“spiritual worldliness” (Nos. 93-97). That is indeed spiritual worldliness. In
addition, there may be people who take advantage of the structure of the
Church, lay people, Christian or not, under the appearance of helping the
Church financially. They may give funds in the name of a member of the Church
which is then received, but received in a naïve or a-critical manner which does
not ask about the source of such funds, which may be dirty money, monies being
laundered, whether coming from drugs, or the mafia, or from some other illegal
source. Such monies might be deposited in the account of a Cardinal or a Bishop
and allegedly destined for charity. Thanks to God, such abuses are being
recognized and eliminated. That is the aspect of financial corruption. Another
way of corruption is this misadministration. It happens in the Church that a
prelate, a Bishop or a priest, may receive an amount of money for a project,
but instead of it being directed to that project, it is directed elsewhere,
even if to some good. But such procedures are clearly not properly accountable
nor transparent. Transparency and accountability are understandably important dimensions
of modern evangelisation.
Q: You talk about
the main causes of all temptations are pleasure, power and prestige.
Bishop Rodrigo: The Pope mentions these causes in the instruction because, I
think, the analysis of the temptations of Christ reveal that they are the root
of all temptations. Power because it is human. Power gives you at the same
prestige and prestige gives you pleasure. But there is also ambition, the quest
for honour, fame, glory and so on. Pleasure may be of different kinds. It may
be physical, psychological, moral, success, accomplishment, and so on. In
themselves, these are human tendencies that can be used for good or for bad. In
the sense that even self-satisfaction, you have to have a minimum of
self-esteem and a minimum of taking care of your own health but not for your
own pleasure but for service. Power is necessary in authority; not as
oppressing power but as a service to the common good. We can say the same is of
prestige, it is good that the people see that we live the Gospel not for us to
be praised but, the Gospel says it very clearly, so that people see your good
works and they may give glory to the Father who is in heaven. So people may be
encouraged by our good example. However, you can also give good example in a
pharisaic way just to get praise, just for honour, for prestige, to be
recognized. The tendencies that in themselves are human may be “disordered”, as
St. Ignatius would say, because they miss the right purpose for which they
exist.
Yago: Bishop Rodrigo, thanks a lot for your wonderful contribution to this blog. We have gained greatly through your witness.
Bishop Rodrigo: Thanks to you Yago!
